PennyBank.Biz/Discussion

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PennyBank.biz is now in a phase of structuring it towards a non-profit organization. Focus is now on:

Potential co-founders are welcome to collaborate here, using their RealNames.

fridemar 15:30, 9 March 2009 (PDT)

What do you think of PennyBank.Biz ?

Brandon ... thank you for the subtle support. Yes, meanwhile I've calmed down and try do work more on not so crowded territorium (as I hope). It is the idea of a PennyBank.biz, that operates on a minimum energy level. I copy to here some stuff, that appears to be ideally handled in AboutUs.com, stuff that must be elaborated.

Perhaps you would love to be invited to be in the penny consortium of the founding committee. Welcome then. But be warned :-) it costs a real investment of ca. 0.80 US$ (80 pennies) to buy a 10% share of the bought domain. If this is too much, you can split your share with friends to reduce your costs to 0.08 US$s. I plan to offer other 10% shares in an open letter to BillGates, WarrenBuffet and other great philantropists. ( It should be the first time, that poor people make an offer to friendly and potent businessmen.)

Now comes the tricky part: All involved participants are "insiders", who make each transaction transparent, in the sense of OpenBusiness, realized in an OpenBusinessWiki with the goal of a SocialCommonWealth. They not only make their financial transactions open, but also collaborate openly in wikis and beyond, to increase their own "share-holder-value"; for short, they create value around the domain ( Ideas, Concepts, Software, Music, Art, ... ) This way, they can sell from time to time shares of their shares for market value, inviting more and more people to CreateAndShareWealth. It goes without saying, that nobody forbids them, to sell their own goods and services too. Instead of hoarding big shares, it is much more interesting to share shares in public:

Reasons:

  • people get more collaborators
  • people make "friends with the money"
  • people get more publicity
  • people who don't "fear the light of the day" develop the values of trust and goodwill.


PennyBank.biz scales arbitrarily by subdomains like over

UserName1.PennyBank.biz ... UserNameN.PennyBank.biz.

Each member can give and receive goods and services in public, where credits can be seen as special goods or services. Their accounts are listed in public.

PennyBank accumulates pennies on each user-account for public insight.

Only "members, who don't shy the light of the day" have an open account for OpenBusiness.

As PennyBank knows the email-addresses of each member (like AboutUs), "zero cost funds transfers via PayPal or similar services" might become possible.

Each member acts in the sense of MeatballWiki:WorkLikeAHoofSmith and reduces advertising costs.

I blog these intermediary thoughts for the benefit of all current and future interaction partners.

Heaven for you and all the beeings around us.

-- fridemar


Work in Progress

Copied from my Meatball contribution to here for further refinement:

You needn't worry on the "use of an URL" as a suggested general practice in Meatball with heavy refactorisation work. It is a personal preference currently for the above mentioned reasons. In an OpenBusinessWiki however, where real transactions are initiated, with minimal transaction costs, I will promote it and test it. E.g. Today I bought the last top level domain name http://www.PennyBank.Biz. E.g. the intended successor buyer, who will own the name, could use it as a signature, in the following sense: (Please don`t laugh, it is only a funny example with a deeper meaning"): PennyBank.com offers you a credit of 0,78 US$ at 4% p/a for buying a selfchosen domain-name, together with 9 other children of the OneLapTopPerChild project. Please subscribe our mailing-list, such that we can transfer the money without cost to your email-based group account at (say) Paypal. We waive the 4%, if you put on your homepage, the message, that you bought the domain with a credit of PennyBank.biz. Soon a lot of children could have a domain-name of their own, offering penny credits, with different conditions, depending on their creativity. At the same time, the children are developing their domains by associating their own ideas, music and artwork with it. The domain-names can be used in different ways, e.g. forwarded to blogs, producing adsense income, they can be SLURL interfaces to SecondLife and other MetaVerse s, or simply objects for sale. They can make unregulated pink sheet IPOS as initial offerings, "over the counter", etc. We have to explore the rules for this market, that is imho one of the candidates for OpenBusiness, OpenBusinessWikis building a SocialCommonWealth for the prognosted 200 Mio children and other peers, who like to be partners. -- fridemar

End Copy

Dear Brandon, it's a pleasure to working with you.

All the best to you and all the people around us.

Fridemar 13:57, 10 July 2007 (PDT)

Some profound Questions of MartinPfahler

Fridemar,

I read some of your posts about PennyBank.Biz with interest.

Anytime I read about people trying to figure out new ways to fund “stuff”, outside of grants or loans or via high growth business models or stock market, or typical modes of sucking up to deep pockets - I have interest. That said my current understanding of this particular effort is very fuzzy, and I’m not sure how to get involved with the brainstorming process.

A sampling of questions I have in an attempt to better understand include:

How is this effort different than current micro finance systems?

How is this effort different than existing money generating web sites having an “I will if you will” dynamic?

How is this effort different than many existing web sites that have a “feel free to make a contribution if you like our efforts dynamic”?

How is this effort different than a non profit credit union dynamic?

What is the major objective of this effort?

How do we get the "critical mass"?

If this effort deals with small denominations like pennies, how does it plan to collect enough of those to pay for “stuff” that is much more expensive? In other words how do you plan to gain lots of participation and public awareness?

How will this effort reduce transaction costs when moving around pennies?

I have yet to see an online method of collecting money that simulates the simple brick and mortar (world) phenomenon of “passing the hat”. When you pass around a hat to people, for their tiny cash contributions, there is no overhead transaction cost. Also if a collection benchmark amount is not collected, one can have all the people in the room reach back into the hat, to get their money back – again no transaction costs. In contrast “the catch” today is that one must first have enough money in their pockets or a formal banking account to “charge up” their internal account – and this process incurs transaction costs. In other words if all that you have is 5 cents to contribute to a cause, you can’t efficiently get your cash into the virtual communal pot - that 5 cent value is lost. Vending machine companies dealing with micro transactions are trying to crack this nut by creating local kiosks where one can buy special micro currencies, without having a prior bank account or credit card (for example a 14 year old person can do micro transactions - even on the Internet - after using the local kiosk).

Implicit Links to explore

If everybody in the world having a few cents of change could drop it into a virtual pot without these typical “charge up internal account” or transaction cost problems there is potential to make some very big things happen. Smart minds at places like MIT dealing with micro currencies and automated currency systems (and other university researchers specializing in this subject matter that I have previously interviewed) have not yet cracked this nut – so I am curious to discover if this effort has a better idea?

PennyBank.Biz for DigitalStuff Only

Fridemar,

Upon reading your talk page I discovered, "contribute digital goods and services, based on ideas, concepts, art, music, software".

I think you have a noble quest, but my personal interest is in dealing with “stuff” that costs money that cannot be moved through a digital pipe – such as lots of brick and mortar stuff. Can you clarify if your bank intent is solely for digital “stuff”? In general dealing with the former is a more complex problem – digital stuff is easier to store, move, and manipulate. MartinPfahler

Martin, thank you, that you anticipated my planned public mail to you. I am currently studying your links and now your writing above, which is filled with questions, that I can't answer straight from the shoulder.

Yes to your clarification request: CreatingAndSharingWealth, based on digital stuff, is my direction.

I hope, this should not exclude further collaboration, because each brick and mortar stuff has a digital representation and allows collateral digital activities (software, science, art, music).

As I saw your writing until now, short before going to bed, I leave only this tiny notice for later adding more, to go more into the details. Fridemar 16:11, 17 July 2007 (PDT)

Examples, scenarios

Fridemar, thank you for such a fast reply! Above you state, "brick and mortar stuff has a digital representation". I’m not sure I understand what this means. Can this be clarified via some examples? Here is one scenario:
A group of a million people wants to pay a team of research and development scientists to do an initial research phase on their novel alternative fuel commuter car concept, or another group wants to pay scientists to do initial research to develop perennial plants for crops, to replace annuals, thus lower today's negative environmental impact to produce food, or another group wants to pay scientists to invent a novel mini-process machine that will allow group members to add their labor along a supply chain and earn income from home.
In each case the group members can pitch in only 10 cents – but that is enough to collect $100,000 and pay for the initial research phase. I put my 10 cents into the communal virtual pot – how will the value of my 10 cents be retained without loss? In all of these cases the research and development scientists are doing their research work “off line” – such as in university and federal research labs (using laboratory equipment).
Can this scenario translate into a “digital representation” that adds value to the mentioned process? – which is one where money must be gained to execute the project, and one where each individual does not have nearly enough money to pay the cost without in effect pooling their 10 cents? MartinPfahler


Scenario StocksAtHome.Com

Martin, this (and the following scenarios) could serve as an example, to demonstrate what is different from "business as usual". It is clear, that only pooling cents isn't enough to realize the goal of a prospering PennyBank and moreover a prospering SocialCommonWealth.

What we need is a multi-level CreatingWealth process. We need BootstrapIntelligence.

It needs only pennies, flowing to poor, but highly creative and collaborative peers in order to buy a domain like StocksAtHome.Com. Many people might have had this idea, but have not unlocked them, because there was no incentive yet. Now with OpenBusiness, coupled to a shared catchy domain-name, it is possible, to develop this idea in public (as a CreativeCommons project)

  • Looking for available resources (the underlying base software is OpenSource)
  • Call for partners in public (by open mails, social annotations, forum postings)

Input StocksAtHome.Com here at AboutUs and you find (and can amplify) the first steps, looking for resources via a WikiTrail.

Fridemar 13:48, 18 July 2007 (PDT)

Why 5 cents don't lose their value

Fridemar, thank you very much for trying to help me understand your vision. The problem is I have a small brain and the above explanation still has me confused relative to the questions I previously asked and scenarios I presented. For example can you tell me how your vision might address one of the scenarios, or how it can eliminate transaction fees so one with only 5 cents does not lose their value when making a contribution? – or perhaps your vision was never intended to address these issues in the first place? MartinPfahler


Hey, hey Martin :-) ... those 5 cents are a very serious thing. Do you know a public money tracker community service, that allows public listing of one's transactions and account statements? This is not a rhetorical question. For the start we need such a service, to build upon it. I ask you and am going to ask Jean-Christophe_Capelli and every reader to point to such a service.

We must have a platform, where nobody is afraid to show in public their penny transactions. I guess that in this process, there is a challenge to make the transactions bigger and bigger.

It could be one of the providers at BarCampBank/BankAndFinanceWatch

It's not a problem of the technique it is a problem of the mindset of the providers (and perhaps users).

Fridemar, I don't get the above statement. Lots of people already have the right mindset - they have 5 cents in their pocket, and they are willing to throw it into a virtual pot, to contribute. Today they don't, because they know the "real world" transaction cost will eat up the value of their 5 cents. I see this as a technical or perhaps legal problem, not a mindset problem MartinPfahler

I am searching and searching and only have been finding providers, who are not appropriate because they write something of the following:

  • to protect privacy but don't encourage open account listings
  • everthing within their service is copy-right, so that not even screenshots of accounts are possible.
  • their service is only for private use

As Brandon has signalled his love for such transparency, I would love to start with him the involvement in such a service. At last, he owes me 0.80 US$ and I owe him 10% of the gain, when selling the domain. We must settle the question, what if the gain is negative. I trust him, that he doesn't let me do all the work for developing the domain.

Why domain selling as a SocialCommonWealth tool?

I am in the dark about your mentioned domain selling, its purpose? Why would I or general public have interest in this? MartinPfahler

Thank you for asking this critical question. We all know, how difficult it is to monetize an idea. Consequence: there may be an abundance of ideas, not made public, because it doesn't pay to make them public (in an early state). These ideas are locked out of the public mind until enough critical mass of substance is accumulated for copy-righted publication or patents. We all know:
  • the loss of energy, involved in bureaucratic procedures to get a budget for projects
  • the fatal "tell me more about it", inventors are confronted with,
  • the "not invented here", and other obstacles.

Public collaboration however can expand ideas in a fraction of time, because the pool of appropriate knowledge workers is much bigger. Therefore it comes handy to bind the idea to a domain name and develop it under the By-Sha license of the CreativeCommons. Domains can be shared, shares can be shared. Domains track the identity of the involved collaborators. Developing domains foster virtual companies. fridemar 17:04, 19 July 2007 (PDT)

Work in Progress

You could ask, what about other peers, who have not yet that reputation, Brandon has. This is the problem of the IteratedPrisonersDilemma, that can be solved in a wiki community like AboutUs by Meatball:SoftSecurity The same holds for the domain sharers of StocksAtHome.

again the above content loses me - I don't get its relevance to the 5 cent problem? MartinPfahler Transfer costs can be substituted by trust, built by public contributions, with a verifiable identity by domain ownership. In this case an acknowledge-statement on the domain-owners site would sign the agreement and save transfer costs, even the small investment of pennies.

Why do I or any in general public want to share in the domain? and what domain do you mean? MartinPfahler

It's a way to attract collaboration and venture capital as a BootstrapProcess.

Still don't see how your vision attracts collaboration or venture money? MartinPfahler

What about thinking of the 5 cts as a catalyst, an agent that enables processes, without being destroyed. I think it is a bigger damage for any wikizen to risk his/her reputation than to risk the pennies. I am rather sure, that the 5 cts + some accrued interest is a safe bet :-)

Great - so we agree the 5 cents is a catalyst - but I still don't see how anybody can get their 5 cents from their pocket, into the virtual pot, without losing its value due to transaction costs - so in effect there is still no 5 cents available MartinPfahler

The real satisfaction and glory comes from the publicly documented collaboration and transaction trail, that aroses around such tiny initial investments. I am glad to see your constructive suggestions, we can refine on a dedicated Wiki page.

Martin's and other suggestions for FairTransferOfPennies moved to a shared page.

Martin, wow, what an energy and good ideas come from you. Thank you for you engagement. I'll respond to you tomorrow. Must go to bed now 2:35 to remain a useful conversation partner. I only blog the last contribution for the mutual benefit of all involved participants, accessable via my following external signature. Is it ok, to copy your part (CC By SA)? Too tired to isolate my parts now. WikiBlogging the whole page would make life easier. What do you think about it? -- fridemar

fridemar 15:44, 19 July 2007 (PDT)

Manually organizing these transactions without a supporting software doesn't scale

Fridemar, I not sure what you mean by, "public money tracker service". If you make a transaction why not just post it on a Wiki page for all to see. Brandon has done similar to be transparent, for example for RecentChangesCamp. Again I suspect I really don't yet understand your purpose/vision - so am currently having trouble to contribute. MartinPfahler

Yes, Martin: Of course, I have seen similar things on the CommunityWiki, but we don't want "single shots". We want to see masses who add and exchange values, starting with pennies. This way, we can start the magic of the big numbers. Who contributes what for which projects? What is the payoff for single persons, projects. Most of the money remains book-money, but as soon as e.g. domains are sold, then we come to the next step. Manually organizing these transactions without a supporting software, it doesn't scale. fridemar 16:00, 19 July 2007 (PDT)

Wanted: The Step By Step Approach

Fridemar, I'm wondering if you might be able to take me through an example to help me understand better. For example perhaps there are some folks that want to develop an alternative energy mini car that is cheap, so they can ultimately afford to buy and drive what they feel is a better mode of transport to or from work. Just for examples sake let's assume a million people have interest in this particular project, yet they are all in no life situation to take on a big financial risk, and the vast majority can contribute only less than $1 for an initial phase of the project (that small amount would be eaten up by transaction fees today). Yet as a group they still have potential to pool $1 million to get the ball rolling. In terms of your vision how would you make this alternative energy car project happen? Ideally you could walk me through you explanation and intended process "step by step". I hope I am not causing you a "pain in your neck" with all my questions, I am just really trying to understand your vision and intended process. MartinPfahler


Step: Let Us Find a Free Public Tracking Service

Martin, we are in the step by step approach. What we do, is creating the example. We both agree, that currently pennies are eaten up by transaction fees.

Fridemar, so we agree the pennies are eaten up by transaction fees. Following this you have the explanation below as "the next step". I am still not understanding how this next step, that you describe below, prevents the loss of value in the pennies?

I need more clarity. We are dealing with at least two different types of money. One is "real money" - the type that currently is inside ones pocket as pennies. Another is money that sits in traditional bank accounts or credit card or debit card accounts. All of these forms of money cannot be moved today "on-line" if the denominations are only pennies, without losing value.

In contrast another type of money is "virtual money". This is simply an abstract record keeper. For example right now I can post my assets on a Wiki page or similar for others to see and track - and this incurs no transaction costs. The problem as I see it, is that this type of money is not tied to the other types of money I mention in the prior paragraph. Also even if it is tied in some way to the money in the prior paragraph, I still don't see how one can put real pennies (from my pocket) into the system and later take them out, without incurring transaction fees? Fridemar, it would help my understanding a lot if you stated, “Martin, I do not currently have the answer to this problem you mention”, or “Martin I currently have the answer to this problem, you just don’t understand it yet”. MartinPfahler


Paypal has the answer to this problem. But we must explore it.

Section moved to FairTransferOfPennies

Creating or Finding the Public Tracking Service

So the next step for us is to find or create a (free) tracking service, so that we can start with virtual book-money transactions and public account consolidations. I guess you or other peers here or in the blog, know or have some platform or could adapt some wiki-software to start with:

Getting realtime the following publically visible information:

  • How much money is each peer ready to invest/transfer at their conditions
  • How much money needs each peer at their conditions PLUS
  • What are the non-monetary collaborative content contributions of the involved peers.

Different from a classical banking application, public collaboration is "taken into account".

For the benefit of all involved peers, the last two contributions are WikiBlogged to the SocialCommonWealth.Com blog .

fridemar 05:39, 20 July 2007 (PDT)

Scenario SellAndBuyWiki

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