<h3>Reciprocity (3) <img src="118482-clearing-the-air_files/blank.gif" alt="Many thank yous! The poster has helped others since their own post was made." title="Many thank yous! The poster has helped others since their own post was made." class="icon tick">
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<div class="colset-content"><div class="id">
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Since writing this post <strong>xbox</strong>
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<strong class="has-helped">has helped</strong> in <strong>3</strong> other users' posts.
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<strong>xbox</strong> <strong class="has-helped">is a verified member</strong>,
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has been around for <strong>2 months, 2 weeks</strong>
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and has <strong class="has-helped">45 posts</strong>
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and <strong class="has-helped">838 replies</strong>
$(this).parent().html('<br /><br />Tags are the "behind the scenes" connectors. They link post to people, and people to other people. Having lots of relevant tags on a post increases the chance of a post being seen by people who can help. <strong>If you can ever improve the post\'s tags, doing so will give you link back credit just like leaving a reply.</strong>');
<b class="ubi"><img src="118482-clearing-the-air_files/blank.gif" alt="Verified User (1 month, 2 weeks)" title="Verified User (1 month, 2 weeks)" class="icon user-green" height="16" width="16"></b>
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<b class="ubi"><a href="http://help.com/user/127149-worried_love_m/shoutbox" title="The user has this many shoutouts"><img src="118482-clearing-the-air_files/blank.gif" alt="Shouts: " title="Shouts: " class="icon megaphone" height="16" width="16">0</a></b>
<a href="#reply-3305011" title="Direct link to this comment" alt="Direct link to this comment">#</a>
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<small><a href="http://help.com/near/35.4607,-119.1797">Bakersfield, CA, US</a> | 2 days, 6 hours ago (1 minute after post)</small>
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<p>all you need is love
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<a href="#" class="qoute-link" onclick="if( confirm('Are you sure you want to mark this reply as Quotable?') == false ) { return false; } pal('quotemark', {rid:3305011, pid:118482}, '/post/118482#reply-3305011'); return false;" alt="Excellent reply? Mark it as your favorite." title="Excellent reply? Mark it as your favorite."><img src="118482-clearing-the-air_files/blank.gif" class="icon medal-add" height="16" width="16"></a>
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<a href="#" onclick="add_quote('worried_love_m', 'reply_text_raw_3305011'); return false;" alt="Quote this reply" title="Quote this reply"><img src="118482-clearing-the-air_files/blank.gif" alt="Quote this reply" title="Quote this reply" class="icon quote" height="16" width="16"></a>
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<a href="http://help.com/report?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhelp.com%2Fpost%2F118482-clearing-the-air%23reply-3305011" alt="Report this reply to moderators" title="Report this reply to moderators"><img src="118482-clearing-the-air_files/blank.gif" alt="Report this reply to moderators" title="Report this reply to moderators" class="icon flag-red" height="16" width="16"></a>
<textarea name="new_reply_text" id="reply_text_raw_3305011">all you need is love</textarea>
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<div class="recip">
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<strong>Help me with:</strong>
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<a title="Help out and visit this user's latest post" href="http://help.com/post/118967-my-best-friend-is-going-to-find-out">my best friend is going to find out i love him and im afraid he wont love me help.</a>
<p><a href="http://help.com/user/118278-xbox" class="username-span"><img src="118482-clearing-the-air_files/abc_24.png" alt="" height="16" width="16"> xbox</a> invited 39 users to read this post 2 days, 6 hours ago.</p>
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<strong>Help me with:</strong>
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<a title="Help out and visit this user's latest post" href="http://help.com/post/118858-and-i-know-that-you-care-f">(and I know that you care -- for me too :)</a>
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<div class="reply even isverified isauthor" id="reply-3305018">
<b class="ubi"><img src="118482-clearing-the-air_files/blank.gif" alt="Verified User (2 months, 2 weeks)" title="Verified User (2 months, 2 weeks)" class="icon user-green" height="16" width="16"></b>
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<b class="ubi"><a href="http://help.com/user/118278-xbox/shoutbox" title="The user has this many shoutouts"><img src="118482-clearing-the-air_files/blank.gif" alt="Shouts: " title="Shouts: " class="icon megaphone" height="16" width="16">38</a></b>
The help.com website is supposed to be about giving & receiving (in other words: exchanging) help.
It seems to be 100% supported by sponsored links which are placed automatically and targeted to match the keywords contained in the problem solving discussion / comments written by the participants.
A copy of this archived transcript is included here for informative purposes:
Clearing the Air
The
follow text is copied from the shout-trail exchange between KT1 and
myself. I would like to bring this out into the open for discussion.
There may be some typos (sometimes I noticed spaces missing from the
copy/paste activity) -- please feel free to edit and correct the typos.
I am eager to hear feedback from the help.com community!
Thanks for helping to clear the air!
:) nmw
====
KT1 Please stop spamming posts with URLs to fill in the contact form
====
xbox I don't understand - when people ask for help, links are often provided to sites that might be helpful.
Could you explain your reasoning a little more?
====
KT1 The sites you were linking are empty, thus not helpful, and we are getting complaints.
====
xbox who is complaining? why don't they start helping and stop complaining? Isn't "help" what this site is supposed to be about?
====
KT1 Yes,this site is about help and if you have
informational or news sites to add to those topics in a contextual way,
you are more than welcome to post tham. Posting undeveloped sites and
advising users to contact you has the appearance of a scam.
====
xbox It seems to me that you have perhaps had bad
experiences in the past that make you fearful of scammers. I do not
consider myself to be a scammer,and I feel it is inappropriate for you
to assume that I might be.
What could we do in order to abate your fears?
====
KT1 Stop posting links to sites with no content and asking people to fill out the form to contact you.
====
xbox You seem to be avoiding my question:
1. there is content on those sites - including an invitation to become engaged and help
2. since the sites linked to are about helping WRT the topic in question, they are highly relevant
3.you
appear to have not responded to my question about your fear of scammers
- what experiences have you had in the past, and how did you deal with
them (and how are these similar to the present situation)?
====
KT1 To answer your questions:
1. I have gone to the sites and there is no content. 2. There is no content on the sites, thus they are not relevant. 3. Scammers and spammers are banned.
====
xbox we appear to have a difference of opinion WRT what qualifies as content.
Could you describe the basis for your judgement whether content exists or not?
For
me, "no content" means that the browser shows an error message that
nocontent was found. On the other hand, if the site returns data and
the browser displays these data, then I refer to the data returned as
the"content".
Could you describe what you mean when you say
"content"? (since by the "operational definition" of content that I
gave above there obviously is content at the sites I have linked to; but still you maintain that there is "no content" - could you explain this?)
====
KT1 We will have to agree to disagree.
====
xbox and could you also explain how your statement that "scammers and spammers are banned" is related to the present situation?
====
KT1 You asked what was done to scammers and spammers and I answered.
====
xbox OK, so I guess that it really isn't relevant to the present situation after all.
And
I am sorry to say that I cannot agree or disagree with your remarks
about "content" since you are not explaining what you mean when you
refer to "content" (and therefore your views seem abstract rather than
concrete). I guess I will just have to accept that you are unable to
describe what you mean (when you refer to "content") and therefore your
statements about the presence or absence of content are invalidated).
I
am not unwilling to listen to you, but if you do not wish to explain
yourself, then I will simply have to accept that, I guess.
If that's what you mean by "agree to disagree", then OK - I can accept that you do not wish to talk about it.
xbox The second link you mentioned was provided as a useful
form for exchanging information about lawyers in response to the
question "Does anyone know of a really good lawyer or journalist in Ireland, England or America?". I feel it was highly relevant and helpful - I am sorry that you have now deleted the comment because now others will not be able to decide whether it is helpful to them or not.
Why do you feel it is your responsibility to decide whether something is helpful or not? Is it not true that what might not be helpful to you may indeed be very helpful to someone else? Is this site about you consider to be helpful, or what the users of the site consider to be helpful? I would think it should be the latter. What do you think?
====
KT1 The owners of this site reserve that right.
====
xbox what right?
====
KT1 Just curious, can you post a screenshot of what you see when you click the second link to my shoutbox?
====
xbox why? can't you post screenshots?
====
xbox and I'm also still curious what "right" you are talking about (and why?)
====
KT1 I am trying to answer your questions but if you are
more interested in arguing than posting a screenshot of what YOU see (I
know what I see)then this discussion is over.
====
xbox well I know what I see too - and I assume (since we're
talking about the same URL) that it's the same data. If you are in
doubt, then maybe you should simply post a screenshot and I can confirm
that whether what you see is (more or less) equivalent to what I see.
I
still don't understand what you meant with "right", but if you do not
care to talkabout that either, then I can accept that, too. And I also
have to leave in about half an hour, so if we can't figure this out
soon, then maybe we'll just have to revisit any unresolved issues
another time.
I amconcernedabout the fact that
you seem to place very little trust in the users of the site. Is this
something I could post about, or would you react negatively to such a
post?
====
KT1 Please do not make post "subject" lines in all caps.
====
xbox LOL, ok - I wanted to do that as a way to put the topic to discussion.
:) nmw
====
KT1 As a tpoic it is fine. We don't like it for subject lines because the site would be a bit annoying to read.
====
xbox I totally agree!
====
KT1 Post one more link to a site with no content - only a domain parking spot or list of links - and you will be banned.
====
KT1 I banned you because you persisted in posted your sites
after being asked twice not to. You are not allowed to advertise on our
sites as you agreed to in the Terms of Use. If you do it again, in any
way, shape or form, you will be permanently banned.
====
xbox I don't exactly understand what you mean - is linking
to other sites that display advertisements not permitted? If that were
the case, then you would basically be say that it is not permissible to
link to 99% of the Internet (at least). To me, this sounds absurd.
Since writing this post xboxhas helped in 3 other users' posts.
xboxis a verified member,
has been around for 2 months, 2 weeks
and has 45 posts
and 838 replies
to their name.
The follow text is copied from the shout-trail exchange between
KT1 and myself. I would like to bring this out into the open for
discussion. There may be some typos (sometimes I noticed space missing
from the copy/paste activity) -- please feel free to edit and correct
the typos.
I am eager to hear feedback from the help.com community!
Thanks for helping to clear the air!
) nmw
====
KT1 Please stop spamming posts with URLs to fill in the contact form
====
xbox I don't understand - when people ask for help, links are often provided to sites that might be helpful.
Could you explain your reasoning a little more?
====
KT1 The sites you were linking are empty, thus not helpful, and we are getting complaints.
====
xbox who is complaining? why don't they start helping and stop complaining? Isn't "help" what this site is supposed to be about?
====
KT1 Yes,this
site is about help and if you have informational or news sites toadd to
those topics in a contextual way, you are more than welcome topost
tham. Posting undeveloped sites and advising users to contact youhas
the appearance of a scam.
====
xbox It seems to me
that you have perhaps had bad experiences in the past that make you
fearful of scammers. I do not consider myself to be a scammer,and I
feel it is inappropriate for you to assume that I might be.
What could we do in order to abate your fears?
====
KT1 Stop posting links to sites with no content and asking people to fill out the form to contact you.
====
xbox You seem to be avoiding my question:
1. there is content on those sites - including an invitation to become engaged and help
2. since the sites linked to are about helping WRT the topic in question, they are highly relevant
3.you
appear to have not responded to my question about your fear ofscammers
- what experiences have you had in the past, and how did youdeal with
them (and how are these similar to the present situation)?
====
KT1 To answer your questions:
1. I have gone to the sites and there is no content. 2. There is no content on the sites, thus they are not relevant. 3. Scammers and spammers are banned.
====
xbox we appear to have a difference of opinion WRT what qualifies as content.
Could you describe the basis for your judgement whether content exists or not?
Forme,
"no content" means that the browser shows an error message that
nocontent was found. On the other hand, if the site returns data and
thebrowser displays these data, then I refer to the data returned as
the"content".
Could you describe what you mean when you
say"content"? (since by the "operational definition" of content that
Igave above there obviously is content at the sites I have linked to; but still you maintain that there is "no content" - could you explain this?)
====
KT1 We will have to agree to disagree.
====
xbox and could you also explain how your statement that "scammers and spammers are banned" is related to the present situation?
====
KT1 You asked what was done to scammers and spammers and I answered.
====
xbox OK, so I guess that it really isn't relevant to the present situation after all.
AndI
am sorry to say that I cannot agree or disagree with your remarksabout
"content" since you are not explaining what you mean when yourefer to
"content" (and therefore your views seem abstract rather thanconcrete).
I guess I will just have to accept that you are unable todescribe what
you mean (when you refer to "content") and therefore yourstatements
about the presence or absence of content are invalidated).
Iam not unwilling to listen to you, but if you do not wish to explainyourself, then I will simply have to accept that, I guess.
If that's what you mean by "agree to disagree", then OK - I can accept that you do not wish to talk about it.
xbox The
second link you mentioned was provided as a useful form for
exchanginginformation about lawyers in response to the question "Does anyone know of a really good lawyer or journalist in Ireland, England or America?". I feel it was highly relevant and helpful - I am sorry that you have now deleted the comment because now others will not be able to decide whether it is helpful to them or not.
Why do you feel it is your responsibility to decide whether something is helpful or not? Is it not true that what might not be helpful to you may indeed be very helpful to someone else? Is this site about you consider to be helpful, or what the users of the site consider to be helpful? I would think it should be the latter. What do you think?
====
KT1 The owners of this site reserve that right.
====
xbox what right?
====
KT1 Just curious, can you post a screenshot of what you see when you click the second link to my shoutbox?
====
xbox why? can't you post screenshots?
====
xbox and I'm also still curious what "right" you are talking about (and why?)
====
KT1 Iam
trying to answer your questions but if you are more interested
inarguing than posting a screenshot of what YOU see (I know what I
see)then this discussion is over.
====
xbox well I
know what I see too - and I assume (since we're talking about thesame
URL) that it's the same data. If you are in doubt, then maybe youshould
simply post a screenshot and I can confirm that whether what yousee is
(more or less) equivalent to what I see.
I still don'tunderstand
what you meant with "right", but if you do not care to talkabout that
either, then I can accept that, too. And I also have toleave in about
half an hour, so if we can't figure this out soon, thenmaybe we'll just
have to revisit any unresolved issues another time.
I amconcernedabout
the fact that you seem to place very little trust in the users ofthe
site. Is this something I could post about, or would you
reactnegatively to such a post?
====
KT1 Please do not make post "subject" lines in all caps.
====
xbox LOL, ok - I wanted to do that as a way to put the topic to discussion.
:) nmw
====
KT1 As a tpoic it is fine. We don't like it for subject lines because the site would be a bit annoying to read.
====
xbox I totally agree!
====
KT1 Post one more link to a site with no content - only a domain parking spot or list of links - and you will be banned.
====
KT1 Ibanned
you because you persisted in posted your sites after being askedtwice
not to. You are not allowed to advertise on our sites as youagreed to
in the Terms of Use. If you do it again, in any way, shape or form, you
will be permanently banned.
====
xbox I don't
exactly understand what you mean - is linking to other sites that
display advertisements not permitted? If that were the case, then you
would basically be say that it is not permissible to link to 99% of the
RE:
The second link you mentioned was provided as a useful form for
exchanging information about lawyers in response to the question "Does anyone know of a really good lawyer or journalist in Ireland, England or America?"
Dan TL wrote: Dang that was a read. Well what now ? you both still going at it ? settle/resolve somthing ?
Good question, Dan.
I guess the question we should attempt to resolve is: Should I be banned from this site if/when I link to any other site?
I
am not interested in making the kinds of value judgments about the
sites that I link to. If others do not support and/or disagree with my
work, then I will probably be banned when I do whatever I feel is the
right thing to do.
Does the help.com community want me and/or my activity on this site to be banned?
KT1
said that those links had "no content" does that mean literally their
just blank ? I could understand where Kt1's comming from if you did
that, but if its just stuff like we all link *zones off*....... i dont even
know the real insight so im just going to say, from what i've seen i
dont think you need to be banned, i havent seen you do anything wrong
but kt1 is on here more then me and mod to monitor so ... idk hope things
settle
The other link (the one which was permitted -- see http://help.com/post/105947-can-you-h... ) linked to a site that includes advertising ("sponsored links" -- much like on this site).
In contrast, the link which was not permitted contains no "sponsored links".
KT1's
value judgments seem rather like personal whim than anything reliable.
Besides, I feel the community is quite able to discern scammers and
flag the posts appropriately (I have done this too).
Perhaps there should be no anonymity involved in flagging posts -- saying "someone" is complaining simply doesn't hold water.
said that those links had "no content" does that mean literally their
just blank ? I could understand where Kt1's comming from if you did
that, but if its just stuff like we all link *zones off*....... i dont even
know the real insight so im just going to say, from what i've seen i
dont think you need to be banned, i havent seen you do anything wrong
but kt1 is on here more then me and mod to monitor so ... idk hope things
settle
Things will definitely settle -- the question is: Will they settle with me or without me?
It's not like I'm unwilling to listen to reason. But I amunwilling (and also unable to accept such unreasonable value judgments.
sorry to see that you have had an issue... however.. i think i know what kt1 is talking about.... click this url.... http://law.firm.in/
if you notice... when you click it, there is no information on that site...
its actually a site that is for sale... check it out... and get back to
me..
Shi,
that site is one my rather large portfolio of sites (what I refer to as
"high traffic targeted keyword domain names" -- quite like the link I
posted to support you [but which was also removed along with my post --
if I remember correctly]). So in that sense the issue affects both of us -- and likewise also the "multiple sclerosis" community, etc. If this community decides there should be no "helping each other"
allowed here, then I see little sense in participating on this site --
that would almost seem like a scam: to build a site at "help.com" that prohibits helping each other.
On
that site there is an invitation to participate in contributing
information that is relevant to the concept "law firm in...". If you feel
that there is not enough information there, then why not contribute
something? Otherwise, it would be more appropriate for you to say "I don't care" than to make a value judgment as to whether the information which is there is sufficient or insufficient.
Am I right to assume that your opinion is more like "I don't care"?
XBox, that is simply not true. The domain name is for sale; the only invitation is to buy the domain name.
Even
if the site you linked to did work as you claim, a link to a place
where a poster could contribute his knowledge of finding a good lawyer
does not help him find a good lawyer. An appropriate link would be to a
site where others have contributed their knowledge on how to find a
good lawyer, or even possibly a site with ads for lawyers.
my
attitude.. no.. i do care.. i dont want to see you get booted for one..
and i do care that you are trying to help others... im completely on your
side here.. however.. when you click the link..http://law.firm.in/
there is nothing there hun... it says the following..
This space is available
... and cheap !!
Go to E-Z.name to
order it now!
and i
think what kt1 was talking about is that this is not a site that is
going to help anyone.. its to sell a site.. know what im talking about?
I'd say that posting a link to a site that is for sale is useless
unless the person is asking for help finding a domain name.
xbox wrote: RE:
The second link you mentioned was provided as a useful form for
exchanging information about lawyers in response to the question "Does anyone know of a really good lawyer or journalist in Ireland, England or America?"
Eric,
please take a look at the thread in which the link was posted. The
thread was asking for information that this is relevant to the focus of
the site in question --t's not like I posted a link to viagra spam or
anything like that.
If you would like to contribute information, then please: do so!
But if you don't care, then that is your business, not mine!
(sorry, if I sound a little irritated, but accusing me of saying something that is untrue does ruffle my feathers a little bit.
ps:
please note that the preview function takes several minutes to display
my comments -- and that is the main reason that my responses are
delayed.
I
did look at the thread, XBox. The thread was not asking for any
information that that site in its current state could possibly have
helped them obtain. The only way to view that site from your link was
to already be in that poster's thread, where anyone with information
that could be put on the site to help that person could have simply
helped directly. Therefore, your link was useless.
attitude.. no.. i do care.. i dont want to see you get booted for one..
and i do care that you are trying to help others... im completely on your
side here.. however.. when you click the link..http://law.firm.in/
there is nothing there hun... it says the following.. This space is available... and cheap !!Go to E-Z.name toorder it now!and
i think what kt1 was talking about is that this is not a site that is
going to help anyone.. its to sell a site.. know what im talking about?
"Cheap" does not equal "Free" -- cheap is cheap, and "there is no such thing as a free lunch".
Would
you like to post something at that site? The site says: "This space is
available... and cheap !!Go to E-Z.name to order it now!" -- and that is
precisely what it means.
i
know... but what i think kt1 was getting at was... that is a spam due to
selling something... not you persay.. but the site... it isnt really
offering advise... just selling something... i think that is why he is
having issue with it.
did look at the thread, XBox. The thread was not asking for any
information that that site in its current state could possibly have
helped them obtain. The only way to view that site from your link was
to already be in that poster's thread, where anyone with information
that could be put on the site to help that person could have simply
helped directly. Therefore, your link was useless.
I disagree.
The person who posted that thread could have asked the very same question
to the audience at "law firm in" (and/or "law firm in Ireland" and/or
"law firm in England" and/or "law firm in America"). Like I said: it
would have been cheap -- and there is no such thing as a free lunch.
know... but what i think kt1 was getting at was... that is a spam due to
selling something... not you persay.. but the site... it isnt really
offering advise... just selling something... i think that is why he is
having issue with it.
Like I said to Eric: the site offers an opportunity to say something.
What KT1 is doing is prohibiting people from saying something.
In
this case, however, there is a "free lunch". CNET is offering that
poster a free lunch by letting them post their question here for free
and letting the LARGE audience here help. Alternatively, they could
indeed buy that domain name, possibly buy a server as well, and put the
question up there; however, that would cost quite a bit of money
compared to the free post here, and I can almost guarantee you it will
reach a much smaller audience. Even the most basic economic analysis
reveals that the link does not offer anything worthwhile to the poster
of that thread.
this case, however, there is a "free lunch". CNET is offering that
poster a free lunch by letting them post their question here for free
and letting the LARGE audience here help. Alternatively, they could
indeed buy that domain name, possibly buy a server as well, and put the
question up there; however, that would cost quite a bit of money
compared to the free post here, and I can almost guarantee you it will
reach a much smaller audience. Even the most basic economic analysis
reveals that the link does not offer anything worthwhile to the poster
of that thread.
Eric, I feel you do not understand the economics of online advertising -- at least not the way I do.
To say that anything is free is absurd! Do you water your lawn in the summer? Do you think that breathing the fumes from congested traffic is free? I don't: Everything has a price -- that price may be deemed "high" or "low", but nothing is ever free. Have you ever heard of global warming?!? That is the COST of decades of pollution. There may not have been cash involved, but it still hurts.
Likewise, when you (or somebody else) click(s) on one of the "sponsored links" on this site, it hurts someone -- maybe a dollar, maybe $10, maybe more.
I
do not want to get into someones else's argument but I have seen
another user go a lot longer on here and they post a link to their own
site on a particular type of question and not always the correct
solution.
No matter what the question is about and what it concerns they always post a link to their own web page.
I did wonder what the policy was on that sort of thing but now I know,
its just a shame that the mods and admins do not investigate everybody
equally. Wether you agree or disagree does not come in to it, its
either wrong or not.
I
have posted many links on this site and sometimes I was unsure if they
were okay, in those instances I have flaged my own post to clarify them
because this site is not my property and if the powers that run it see
it as a breach then thats their right.
I am just finding it
increasingly worrying that other stuff that is quite offensive seems to
be deemed alright and a user gets banned for posting a couple of dodgy
links (I use the term "dodgy" loosely as it is merely someone's
perception, please do not be offended xbox).
As far as freedom of speach is concerned, I do not think there is any such thing.
People are told we have it in a western culture but its a lot on B/S,
what you say is always going to be restricted depending what
environment you find yourself in and in this case its this site rules
and the people who are employed to monitor them.
In fact this post will probably be removed when America wakes up as
people in authority have been named in it and thats normally rule
number 1.
I think you may find yourself staring at another ban xbox, if so its been nice talking to you.
As
you said we use the site for free but the links pay for it and we are
the customers, not the people who need help as they have other concerns
but mostly the helpers.
However it all comes back to who owns it and runs it and I am afraid
they can do what they want with their own property. Thats why I see the
site becoming more of a chat forum than help site, by allowing this to
happen will please their sponsors more, more people more money(oops I
will probably be banned for that)
xbox wrote: Likewise, when you (or somebody else) click(s) on one of the "sponsored links" on this site, it hurts someone -- maybe a dollar, maybe $10, maybe more.Nothing is free.
And
BTW: even if you do not click on an advertisement, there is still a
cost (this is known in that advertising industry as the cost of an impression
--magine someone put a billboard right in front of your house, and
every time you opened the door, the first thing you saw was that
billboard. I don't think it is reasonable for you to say that there
would be no "cost" to you, even though you didn't pay any money for it.
to some accounts, Emerson visited Thoreau in jail and asked, "Henry,
what are you doing in there?" Thoreau replied, "Waldo, the question is
what are you doing out there?" Emerson was "out there" because he
believed it was shortsighted to protest an isolated evil; society
required an entire rebirth of spirituality.
Emerson missed the
point of Thoreau's protest, which was not intended to reform society
but was simply an act of conscience. If we do not distinguish right
from wrong, Thoreau argued that we will eventually lose the capacity to
make the distinction and become, instead, morally numb.
I am afraid I do not give out my email address xbox but I am available on mysapce and facebook.
There is a link in my profile
(I may have just done a free advert for my own webpage there)
Anyway, I hope you get your answers as I have to go just now, and I leave you all with this thought, "The only thing free here is the time we give and time is the only
thing you can not get back, money owed can always be repaid, items
borrowed can be returned but time is a precious gift that should never
be under estimated"
am afraid I do not give out my email address xbox but I am available on
mysapce and facebook.There is a link in my profile (I may have just
done a free advert for my own webpage there)Anyway, I hope you get your
answers as I have to go just now, and I leave you all with this
thought, "The only thing free here is the time we give and time is
the only thing you can not get back, money owed can always be repaid,
items borrowed can be returned but time is a precious gift that should
never be under estimated"
you can see my email address by visiting my profile (as long as I am not banned)
For
future reference to all, posting a shouttrail between users as a post
is inappropriate and will result in the post being closed.
As
stated in the shouttrail, linking to contextual, relevant personal
sites is absolutely allowed. Linking to a personal site that is just a
domain parking spot asking users to submit personal information is not.
future reference to all, posting a shouttrail between users as a post
is inappropriate and will result in the post being closed.
Perhaps
you should note this in some sort of guidelines -- like whether it is
permissible to share information on this website. As an example: Is it
permissible to quote a remark in one thread and post it in another
thread? Why are shoutboxes special? Is there something "top secret"
about a shoutbox?
KT1 wrote: It is inappropriate because it is usually done for negative purposes and the users in the shouts are not there to comment.
I was unaware that shouts are for negative purposes --s it a violation to use the shoutbox for non-negative purposes?
Also: would it be permissible to post information from a shoutbox/shouttrail if the other person is alerted?
If it is not permissible to quote information posted in a shoutbox/shouttrail, I will no longer use them -- so for future reference:
please contact me in some other form (unless the rules change -- and if
the rules change again, then please note the correction in this thread,
so that I will be able to see it).
It's very cute the way you ban my account one minute, give a response, and then a couple minutes later unban my account again.
Perhaps that will help this thread from drifting off topic -- as I have been known to sometimes drift....
So
the way I understand it now is that shoutboxes are now useless -- they
are only for thugs to shout at each other in a negative manner. Have I
understood that correctly?
At any rate, I feel a prohibition
on quoting each other is something I might expect in a totalitarian
state (or something like that) -- and since I am more accustomed to
scholarly discussion, I will have no part in that.
Thank you again for you "as clear as it gets" clarification.
Good
for you --s this a blanket statement, that also applies to all future
statements that KT1 makes? Do you agree with KT1 about everything KT1 has ever said, or is there something in particular that you agree with KT1 about?
Judging from the lack of response from the above anonymous poster, I gather that he/she really doesn't really care all that much.
As long as KT1 is willing to keep this post open, I would greatly appreciate your responses.
If
you do not respond, then I will take that to mean that you do note care
about whether or not I will be banned from help.com if/when I ever do
anything that KT1 doesn't like.
So far, I feel OldFart is the only person who cares enough to have voiced his opinion that he is at least concerned
about the whimsical nature with which censorship is being carried out
on this site (and yes, I agree with OldFart that freedom of speech does
not exist -- since otherwise your local library would probably have
playboy magazine on their shelves).
What I am asking you to do is to consider whether or not you care about my
point of view. If so, and you want my point of view to be continued to
be heard, then speak up now -- since it is otherwise quite likely that I
will join the ranks of Henry David Thoreau.
:) nmw
xbox wrote:
According to
some accounts, Emerson visited Thoreau in jail and asked, "Henry, what
are you doing in there?" Thoreau replied, "Waldo, the question is what
are you doing out there?" Emerson was "out there" because he believed
it was shortsighted to protest an isolated evil; society required an
entire rebirth of spirituality.
Emerson missed the point of
Thoreau's protest, which was not intended to reform society but was
simply an act of conscience. If we do not distinguish right from wrong,
Thoreau argued that we will eventually lose the capacity to make the
distinction and become, instead, morally numb.
While I may agree with you on the way censorship is performed on this site there is very little we can do about it.
It's not our site, it's not run by us and we do not get a say on how its controlled.
(unfortunantly "when in rome").
We
could always leave but that is of no real concern to the people who
staff the site so it would be an idle victory, I have seen quite a few
long term users move on and for reasons not that far from what you
state here. It does seem like a numbers game, they are prepared to
loose dedicated helpers as a trade off for general chat. Even this post
comes under chat and not helping.
It's no secret that you will gain more people from chat than just question and answer helping and that will increase revenue.
The site is becoming more and more of a replacement for the school kids
blocked sites and they come on here to chat because they can not get on
bebo,myspace,msn,facebook and so on.
I
know you are angry xbox and others have posted queries such as yours
but the site is simply not geared to handle this type of debate. The
knowledge base and support is just not there for it.
I would like to see the site get back to what it was originally
intended for, helping people who have problems, worries and advice on
things they have no knowledge of.
I
was not around at the time of this site's creation but I am sure it was
never intended to be full of such trivial questions
(myspace/begging/I'am bored/insult trading).
I am afraid I am in the `getting banned' catagory now as well, so you are not alone.
The
following is what I got (at some point in time, I expect that parents
will begin to become concerned about the advice being offered at
help.com -- so perhaps KT1 should thank me for raising such issues -- and/or thank you for explicating some of the more controversial points that I did not even consider before thinking twice about what you just said. I think the site management ought to be more ethically (or they may regret their apparent lack of conscience later).
But perhaps your a right: perhaps they'll just knock us off instead.
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xbox wrote: I think the site management ought to be more ethically
I meant: "ethically responsible".
And
the "Save Your Relationship" ads by Google link is above the "Reply"
box (which is my perspective as I am writing this -- but after I've
posted this reply I guess it's "below" ;)
The difference between you and them is these people pay to have these adverts on this site after that its all numbers.
The more people here then the more they can charge for the advertising space.
The number crunchers only look at hits not quality, the more questions
asked the more the site will show up on search engines and then the
circle is complete.
There is no room for ethics in capitalism I'am afraid
I
need to go again xbox but if we get banned look for me on the sites I
mentioned previously in the mean time I will add you as a friend and
setup the email.
Eagle Lake, ME, US | 1 day, 23 hours ago (7 hours, 16 minutes after post)
I
do care, I don't think you should be banned from the site. I agree with
oldfart. it dosn't matter what we think unless we run the site, and it
dosn't matter if you were right or wrong. if you are to be banned, then
there are many others that should aswell. but thats only my opinion
Colwyn Bay, 90, GB | 1 day, 22 hours ago (8 hours, 12 minutes after post)
x, I think you are a great person but when you get a bee in your bonnet you don't let it rest.
You were warned, simple fact, you were given more warnings than what
mot people would get in the same situation, it states in the rules what
you can and can not post and also admins have a little room to judge on
what they can ban etc.
KT1 has a tough job, dealing with this site is not the only thing she
has to do and she is only doing what is required in her line of work.
I asked for you to be let back after you were banned and I think that
they were fairly lenient on you by letting you back so quickly so
please don't let me regret sticking up for you by carrying on and
causeing trouble..... incase you are thinking of doing that :)
})i({ ~LazyDaze wrote: x, I think you are a great person
Thanks for this Lazy --t's wonderful for you to say this :)
})i({ ~LazyDaze wrote:
but when you get a bee in your bonnet you don't let it rest.
I
don't know what you mean with this -- want/need clear statements.
Please say exactly what you mean, and don't beat around the bush -- this
is too important to be wishy-washy in any way.
})i({ ~LazyDaze wrote:
You were warned, simple fact, you were given more warnings than what
mot people would get in the same situation, it states in the rules what
you can and can not post and also admins have a little room to judge on
what they can ban etc.
Yes,
I have meticulously studied the terms of service -- and I think they are
vague enough to justify virtually anything (I think we've been at this
point in a discussion before) -- however, I don't think the TOS are even
very relevant: if I get banned for slippery-slope reasons and a large
portion of the membership objects, then the managent is in a precarious
position. Here's a good analogy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_parks
})i({ ~LazyDaze wrote:
KT1
has a tough job, dealing with this site is not the only thing she has
to do and she is only doing what is required in her line of work.
This
is precisely what I have been saying all along -- KT1 should back off
and let the members get more involved in making the decisions (and BTW:
promoting transparency would also go a long way to building trust --
from this point of view, "someone complained" is not a useful construct).
})i({ ~LazyDaze wrote:
I
asked for you to be let back after you were banned and I think that
they were fairly lenient on you by letting you back so quickly so
please don't let me regret sticking up for you by carrying on and
causeing trouble..... in case you are thinking of doing that :)
I am not thinking of causing trouble -- and I think you should know me better than that! ;D What I am trying to do is to:
1. clarify the issues
2. solve the problems
Maybe
it might be neat to go "at it" the other way around. Here's what I
mean: it almost sounds like I'm complaining. But if the issue is that
there is some problem with me, how about if someone attempts to explain
what my problem is (in a manner that I will be able to understand)?
I will say it again and again: I am ready and willing (and hopefully able) to listen to reason.
This
is one of the primary reasons I would not pay to be a member of this
site!!! If you have an issue with a member of Help. take it up with
them and only them. Don't air your laundry hoping to drum up support
for your cause when it's nobody else's business.
Now if you have a specifc concern that would affect everyone - then cite that...not the entire shout box.
IE:
(and not necessarily on point) if you are being banned due to a point
raised by an admin that is not specifically address in the TOS. Get
your answer from either that Admin or seek a mediation with another
admin on the site to resolve the issue.
is one of the primary reasons I would not pay to be a member of this
site!!! If you have an issue with a member of Help. take it up with
them and only them. Don't air your laundry hoping to drum up support
for your cause when it's nobody else's business.Now if you have a
specifc concern that would affect everyone - then cite that...not the
entire shout box.IE: (and not necessarily on point) if you are being
banned due to a point raised by an admin that is not specifically
address in the TOS. Get your answer from either that Admin or seek a
mediation with another admin on the site to resolve the issue.JMHO
Jade, that may very well be the final solution -- perhaps I will simply be banned from this site.
If
that doesn't bother you, then I can accept that -- because there may
very well be insightful remarks from other members of this site (as
long as they don't get banned, I guess)....
I
think the site needs to use its ability to mark a post as "adult" more
often instead of closing it or removing it completely, because thats
what its really about, kids seeing content that isn't for them. I think
the site would be a better place if voting power was given to the
users, instead of posts being deleted on the basis of "because I said
so". I'm really tired of this "do as I say not as I do" mentality
because I have seen mods be very rude to users, but when a user is rude
to a mod, or another, user they are swooped down upon and banned just
like that.
If
you run the risk of being banned - then you need to find support for
your arguements within the TOS. It really doesn't matter how much
support you have from the members. What matters is the violation and if
the action to ban is appropriately supported by the TOS.
I have had my issues with other members and with the admins when I first got here...not anymore.
As
for conjuring up support, it's like a school yard fight, many will
watch, many don't want to join in, and those that do usually don't
fully understand the issues at hand from both parties perspectives so
uninformed decisions are risked. Some will choose to support their
friend for friendship sake but it makes no difference if the rules were
broken.
xbox - a properly handled argument is based on facts, supported by documentation and won on intergrity.
As
for the admins and the mods - tough job, not everything will always be
spelled out in the TOS exactly. Their job is to monitor the site for
the good of all the users and consider the wide range of ages,
personalities, and �free radicals' I certainly don't envy them. I have
seen some instances were users were banned and I disagreed and made my
voice heard quite loudly actually. The admin then advised that the user
was only temp banned but in his defense he held the confidence of the
matter between him and the user. That to me is intergrity and my hat is
still off to him regardless if I agreed with the banning or not.
I
don't know the issues of why you are threatened to be banned...I don't
want to know. What I care about is that if you are going to fight the
fight, do it with dignity and fairness, and the site overall will be
better for it in the end.
you run the risk of being banned - then you need to find support for
your arguements within the TOS. It really doesn't matter how much
support you have from the members. What matters is the violation and if
the action to ban is appropriately supported by the TOS. I have had my
issues with other members and with the admins when I first got here...not
anymore. As for conjuring up support, it's like a school yard fight,
many will watch, many don't want to join in, and those that do usually
don't fully understand the issues at hand from both parties
perspectives so uninformed decisions are risked. Some will choose to
support their friend for friendship sake but it makes no difference if
the rules were broken.xbox - a properly handled argument is based on
facts, supported by documentation and won on intergrity. As for the
admins and the mods - tough job, not everything will always be spelled
out in the TOS exactly. Their job is to monitor the site for the good
of all the users and consider the wide range of ages, personalities,
and �free radicals' I certainly don't envy them. I have seen some
instances were users were banned and I disagreed and made my voice
heard quite loudly actually. The admin then advised that the user was
only temp banned but in his defense he held the confidence of the
matter between him and the user. That to me is intergrity and my hat is
still off to him regardless if I agreed with the banning or not. I
don't know the issues of why you are threatened to be banned...I don't
want to know. What I care about is that if you are going to fight the
fight, do it with dignity and fairness, and the site overall will be
better for it in the end.
Thanks for your
remarks, Jade -- but I am not interested in "fighting". I would rather
just leave than to fight. Aside from that, I feel this issues are
addressed quite clearly in the post at the top, but perhaps it's only
clear to people who work "in information" and/or "on the Internet"
more/less full time.
Again thanks for your advice, but I
simply do not feel it is legal matter or anything like that -- feel
(much like OldFart and others) that the site only has value if the
users "pay attention" to it (BTW: this phenomenon is indeed sometimes
referred to as the "attention economy").
I acknowledge that you are trying to help, and I feel that is great!
You
both make good points and I agree with both of you to an extent but I
have started to notice that there are some strange goings on around
here.
There are certain users who a rude nearly on every post they make
(very little is done)
Others may get a bit stroppy and then find themsleves with a shoutbox full of admins and mods.
(sometimes to much is done)
However
to do anything with dignity and fairness requires all sides to be
playing by those rules and it simply is not like that here at the
moment.
I have stayed out of most of these arguments and Xbox was never a
really a friend until a couple of days ago, I was about to get involved
with one of his posts because the issue was important to me and then I
found out he had been banned.
Whatever
he had done in such a short time I could not understand because I have
seen people here post really outrageous stuff and some of it really
personal and when I found out what it was I thought it a bit petty.
I know he was warned many times but others are giulty of the same crimes and nothing is done, not even a warning!
I
fear I may be making my way on to the banned list as well as some of my
shouts have been removed (no explanation given) but to be honest the
way some of the users get treated it is nearly impossible to stay off
that list.
There just has to be a level playing field or all of this, all of this good work helping people is a waste of time.
he had done in such a short time I could not understand because I have
seen people here post really outrageous stuff and some of it really
personal and when I found out what it was I thought it a bit petty. I
know he was warned many times but others are giulty of the same crimes
and nothing is done, not even a warning!
I think I need to repeat myself: could somebody please explain to me what I have done that is wrong?
Colwyn Bay, 90, GB | 1 day, 18 hours ago (11 hours, 56 minutes after post)
x, the only person who can tell you that is the person who banned you.
I just don't want you to get banned for good, I know I could still talk
to you via e-mail but still, it is nice to see your face so to speak :)
done in such a short time I could not understand because I have seen
people here post really outrageous stuff and some of it really personal
and when I found out what it was I thought it a bit petty. I know he
was warned many times but others are giulty of the same crimes and
nothing is done, not even a warning!
I think I need to repeat myself: could somebody please explain to me what I have done that is wrong?
With respect to the point I am making it is only in reference to the TOS for the site.
You
were warned many times about something that was deemed inappropriate
(as I said I found it a bit petty), posting links to sites the admins
did not agree with.
Essentially that is what you have done
wrong in the first instance, although it's cleared up in this post I
suppose posting shouts on the main page is a bit off but it is not
mentioned in the TOS so I guess that is a bit vague.
It is not
for me to judge you on this and I have stated my point and you know I
agree but it will ultimatly lead to a ban, wether it is justified or
not is irrelevant because if we try to do anything the ban will be
extended to include ourselves.
I mean this post was closed and then re-opened, what message is that supposed to send other than confusion over their own TOS.
It sense it will be closed soon though because it is throwing up to many awkward questions.
})i({ ~LazyDaze wrote: x, the only person who can tell you that is the person who banned you.
I just don't want you to get banned for good, I know I could still talk
to you via e-mail but still, it is nice to see your face so to speak :)
Yes, that's lovely Lazy -- and somehow it's the sense I get reading between the lines, too. And in my mind I am indeed totally
innocent -- and/but there is a caveat. When I recently tried out putting
some "sponsored links" on a couple of my sites and saw what a negative
impact they had on the community, I immediately pulled them off
(I was also unhappy with them myself). And I have long known that these
sponsored links are rather shady, which is one reason why I do not like
that at all (there are other reasons, but those are more academic,
having to do with information retrieval.
I am desperately
trying to find better solutions. I find it abhorrent that these dubious
links are treated like saints and I am treated like a sinner. IMHO the
reverse would be far closer to reality.
But basically, my
point is that I have great respect for this community, but I feel as
though the site management were treating me like I am filth.
US | 1 day, 18 hours ago (12 hours, 11 minutes after post)
I
personally do not understand all the policies of this website, such as
why personal email addresses are blocked if someone makes a choice to
give out their email address, but regardless of why, it is within the
rights of the site admins and moderators to remove things as they see
fit. Frankly, it is much better then some spam filled sites that I have
visited and at least they try to maintain the site and keep order.
I'm
not saying that I agree or disagree with everything that is done by the
admins and moderators, but again I will say that it is within their
rights and if we disagree with the rules and policies of this website
we are free to leave at anytime and go elsewhere.
Now it may
offend you and I expect that it will sorry for that, but I have in the
past noticed that some of the links that you have posted do not seem
relevant to the post. Maybe it was an oversite on your part and not an
intentional act, only you know that. But you pointed it out yourself,
you don't get paid to post here and KT1, so basically whether you agree
or disagree KT1 is just doing his/her job.
As
simply as it can be stated, you cannot use our site to advertise or
gather other people's personal information. Both your posts and a few
shouts with others state that you were trying to get other people to
visit your domain parking spaces in hopes they would buy them or they
would visit them so you could make money. That is not and will not be
allowed and if you persist, you will be banned.
No one is going to be banned for stating their opinion in a civil, professional manner. (Oldfart)
xbox][quote Oldfart]With respect to the point I am making it is only in
reference to the TOS for the site.You were warned many times about
something that was deemed inappropriate (as I said I found it a bit
petty), posting links to sites the admins did not agree with.
Right,
I agree: it's more/less a value judgement... -- the value judgment of the
admins. And in that respect (I'm going a little out on a limb here)
this site is more about the admins than it is about us.
simply as it can be stated, you cannot use our site to advertise or
gather other people's personal information. Both your posts and a few
shouts with others state that you were trying to get other people to
visit your domain parking spaces in hopes they would buy them or they
would visit them so you could make money. That is not and will not be
allowed and if you persist, you will be banned.No one is going to be
banned for stating their opinion in a civil, professional manner.
(Oldfart)
I do not have any "domain parking" spaces -- do you even know what domain parking is?
Fizz,
I'll get back to your point -- but it really fills me with anger to hear
such groundless accusations. And to me it seems that Oldfart is indeed
100% correct: the site management is only interested in people wasting their time here.
Colwyn Bay, 90, GB | 1 day, 17 hours ago (12 hours, 38 minutes after post)
x,
I am trying to keep up with this the best I can, belive me all this
talk of domain this and that is killing my brain lol, but maybe the
simple approach for me would be to ask this~ Is it al about the faxt
you feel as though you have been ganged up on over something you feel
srongly about and/or that you see no problem with?
Maybe if that is the case then we al have different ideas what is wrong
or right, you may think that what you did was right but to others it
would be wrong... (not being technical minded I have no idea what you did
lol so don't shoot me for this)
So where in your eyes you have done nothing wrong, to KT1 you have done something unacceptable.
I
think I got the idea from al of this that you were placeing links to a
website that had adverts/sponsors on it that you wanted others to click
so you could earn money from each visit~ is that correct or not?
If that is not right and you were not gaining money or anything like that then tell KT1...
I
don't know what ese to say really, I don'twant to fan the fire by
saying my opinions on all of this when I don't totally understand it
but then I don't want to say nothing and see you getting banned over
something that could have been saved.
KT1
is being very good with you Xbox....she does want to ban you and has
reopend this post to allow you to get this isue off your chest and to
make a point to other users.
A lot of users don't want you banned....please drop this and consider KT1's replys.
Colwyn Bay, 90, GB | 1 day, 17 hours ago (13 hours, 9 minutes after post)
LoL
Jade, yeah she is female, although when I first came here I thought she
was female and then I heard someone refer to her as Ken, so I thought
ooopsie she is male I got it wrong, so off I went thinking she was male
untill I got pointed back in th right direction again lol
So for now I think she is female :D
KT1,
The reason I thought I was treading on dodgy ground was more to do with
the missing shouts from earlier, because of that I assumed it was only
a matter of time.
Forgive me for thinking this but in the past I have seen peoples
comments removed and then they eventually end up banned and the
community is left asking why.
I realise that some people make an outstanding case for themselves but
when it's totally out of the blue it can leave you wondering what's the
point.
What
I have said on this post has been tempered because I was unsure how
many boxes I had ticked on the road to getting a ban and there lies the
quandary, there does seem to be different lines to cross for different
members.
Surely if the poster has a good track record or very few complaints
then you could just close/ or take down the offending post. Then put a
more constructive point in the closing message.
I
did not want to say to much as I did not want to join the ever
increasing numbers of people forced away from the site or banned but it
certainly feels like I am being backed into a corner and the choices
are being made for me.
This question will keep coming up time
and time again because of the inconsistency in regards to the points
raised. I am sorry folks if this leads to problems for me as I am not
usually this vocal when the site has nothing to do with me but I have
seen things posted on here that certainly touches on what a lawyer
would state as slander never mind the legal implications of some of the
other points made by Xbox.
Having a disclaimer does not make any less devasting for the person directly affected.
I
have nothing to fear as I managed 38 years on this planet without
help.com (finally posted my age) and if this issue gets me into trouble
then at least I tried to make it better.
US | 1 day, 16 hours ago (13 hours, 27 minutes after post)
xbox wrote: Fizz, I'll get back to your point -- but it really fills me with anger to hear such groundless accusations.
I'm waiting for you to get back to my point, but I hope that you take the time to notice that I did not accuse you of anything.
I
simply stated an observation that I had previously made and I also gave
and still give you the benefit of the doubt regarding the seemingly
irrelevant links.
You opened this up for discussion and
invited me to this post, I certainly would hate to think that you are
the type that would get mad because someone doesn't completely share
your viewpoint.
I also hope that this difference of opinion does not damage our friendship beyond repair, but that is entirely up to you.
Liston, 02, AU | 1 day, 16 hours ago (13 hours, 39 minutes after post)
old
fart ad another 30 then you reached slim ,young fart to me,anyway it is
the owners of this site what have the rights to fire and hire what is
and was the quarrel all about ? referrals to certain other sites are
advertising though the owners look at this as a loss understandable i
have been warned to because of personal accusations but rules are rules
sometimes slim has to tape his mouth i like this side you get to know
people there problems there wishes if xbox apologises nicely maybe the
adm. is kind enough to join us again personally i think he was a good
helper,lets see and wait.....
Sorry,
folks -- had just got a call on the phone that was a little urgent.
It's all OK, but that's why I haven't responded (haven't even read
Fizz's first comment yet) -- so let me get back to it! :)
personally do not understand all the policies of this website, such as
why personal email addresses are blocked if someone makes a choice to
give out their email address, but regardless of why, it is within the
rights of the site admins and moderators to remove things as they see
fit. Frankly, it is much better then some spam filled sites that I have
visited and at least they try to maintain the site and keep order.I'm
not saying that I agree or disagree with everything that is done by the
admins and moderators, but again I will say that it is within their
rights and if we disagree with the rules and policies of this website
we are free to leave at anytime and go elsewhere.Now it may offend you
and I expect that it will sorry for that, but I have in the past
noticed that some of the links that you have posted do not seem
relevant to the post. Maybe it was an oversite on your part and not an
intentional act, only you know that. But you pointed it out yourself,
you don't get paid to post here and KT1, so basically whether you agree
or disagree KT1 is just doing his/her job.
Yes
this is a very good point -- and I agree. And I am not questioning that
the idea of site management per se. My point is more one of "how to
work together" ("collaborate") instead of fighting.
And I also
do not expect that everything I ever do is 100% correct -- and I hope
people tell me when what I have done is unsatisfactory or even just how
I could do this or that better. I think that is what "helping" each
other is all about: improvement, fixing things, making things suit the
intended purpose. And so if it is really important to find a law firm
in england, I think my offering that avenue to create a page for the
purpose of finding a law firm in England is not really all that bad.
Would it be bad if I earned money from it? I don't know. I don't think
so --s earning money a bad thing?
I am trying to keep up with this the best I can, belive me all this
talk of domain this and that is killing my brain lol, but maybe the
simple approach for me would be to ask this~ Is it al about the faxt
you feel as though you have been ganged up on over something you feel
srongly about and/or that you see no problem with?Maybe if that is the
case then we al have different ideas what is wrong or right, you may
think that what you did was right but to others it would be wrong... (not
being technical minded I have no idea what you did lol so don't shoot
me for this)So where in your eyes you have done nothing wrong, to KT1
you have done something unacceptable.I think I got the idea from al of
this that you were placeing links to a website that had
adverts/sponsors on it that you wanted others to click so you could
earn money from each visit~ is that correct or not?If that is not right
and you were not gaining money or anything like that then tell KT1...I
don't know what ese to say really, I don'twant to fan the fire by
saying my opinions on all of this when I don't totally understand it
but then I don't want to say nothing and see you getting banned over
something that could have been saved.
Yes, that
may have put gasoline onto the fire, so to speak. It is true that I
asked for feedback in a different thread about how people feel about
such sponsored links -- because I yet again went and tried to place some
on a page (I have tried this before, but have never been happy
with the results. This time I wanted to try something that people might
be more prone to click on then simply text, but that was obviously not
right either. And I learned alot from the feedback I got (and I tried
to fix that problem ASAP -- hmm, maybe I forgot to go back and say
"thanks!" for the feedback ;)
Perhaps, Lazy, you've put your
finger on a very significant point -- and that is that mabe it is simply
differing perspective (I think maybe we've touched on a similar topic
sometime before?): whereas the traditional publishing methods have been
very much about a "publisher" creating something that a "consumer"
buys, the internet has changed that dynamic quite significantly. For
example, here on this site it is quite hard to identify who might be
the "publisher(s)" and/or the "consumer(s)". From my ("web 2.0?)
perspective, websites are more and more becoming forums for exchanging
information about a topic. As such, these forums noremally have a code
of conduct for interaction, and I feel that is also the case here.
And/But yes, I do feel violated if/when a value judgment is being made
and "imposed" upon me. And/But like Oldfart says, it seems like the only option that is available is "take it or leave it".
But I don't think that way.
If
I unhappy about something I will not bottle it up, I will talk about it
and try to find a solution that creates a happier state. I may not be a
"polished" diplomat, but I nonetheless feel that talking about problems
and trying to find solutions is better than the rule of absolute power.
And this method of interaction is definitely a different perspective then unidirectional publishing.
Colwyn Bay, 90, GB | 1 day, 15 hours ago (14 hours, 42 minutes after post)
woo
x, you lost me on your second paragraph, I have no idea what you were
talking about and I will not claim to understand just to ease
discusion, I read it all though :)
And I see it ended with good point, so I hope i helped a little even if I didn't understand 80% of that reply....
I think I will leave this post now because, really, it's a greater amount that I don't understand of it....
So, yeah, umm, Goodluck :)
(P.S,
just to add another log on the fire I fanned, I think that you not
useing shouts to make a point could be a little ummm childish? {sorry}
I just like shouts even if they are not private they still feel more
connected than an open space of a post, so you not shouting is only you
and your friends looseing out, e.g I am one of them )
is being very good with you Xbox....she does want to ban you and has
reopend this post to allow you to get this isue off your chest and to
make a point to other users.A lot of users don't want you
banned....please drop this and consider KT1's replys.Let this post be the
last of it....please.
Well, I might be able to let
some things be, but so could KT1 (i.e., if she indeed finds that the
members of this site find nothing wrong with what I am doing). On the
contrary, if there is something wrong with what I am doing, then I
definitely want to know about it so that I can correct it (this is the
"interaction" I was just talking about in reply to Lazy's post).
Please
drop X (without specifying what I am supposed to stop) seems simply
stifling -- and I have no interest in being stifled. I would much rather
create happiness. Life is not about stopping, it's about starting --
like lazy "smiled" recently: "constant change is here to stay"! ;D
x, you lost me on your second paragraph, I have no idea what you were
talking about and I will not claim to understand just to ease
discusion, I read it all though :)
OMG, I read it
again myself -- and even I had trouble understanding it! If/when
anything changes on this site, maybe it could include the ability to
edit posts (and a revisions history would be the "cherry on top" ;)
No,
I agree -- from the point of functionality I also find it to be a really
cool feature. Perhaps I will "wait and see" if anything changes in the
guidelines and/or TOS (specifically about the shoutbox).
And I
do acknowledge not being happy about posting the shout trail without
asking permission -- but KT1 also never asked permission to ban my
account! ;P
Colwyn Bay, 90, GB | 1 day, 15 hours ago (15 hours, 9 minutes after post)
LMAO x, what do you think will happen with you not useing your shout box?
Can I tell you!
A few friends getting worried that you are not talking to them maybe
but other than that nothing, if you choose to not use your shouts it
will not crash the system or anything quite so wounderous as that and I
doubt anyone other than a few handfull of friends would notice (not
trying to be rude, just stateing fact)
KT1
did kind of ask permission to ban you in a sence, I mean what do you
think the warnings were al about? And I do wounder why you didn't ask
her if you could copy the shout trail because you have copied mine in
the past after you asking me and me saying yes, so it's not as if you
didn't have the common sence to know that posting shouts without asking
was rude, so my question is this, did you do that because you knew her
answer would be no and also because you knew it would spark a new
dissagreement?
Colwyn Bay, 90, GB | 1 day, 14 hours ago (15 hours, 19 minutes after post)
Yes,
it is difficult for me to understand, to understand it I would have to
of been banned, but thankfully I have not yet, But I can only imagine
how annying it must be and more so when you feel that you did nothing
wrong, I am not being bias I can just see both sides.
And if
KT1 said that posting things like my many funny posts was banned, I
would first ask why,and why now but I would not go right ahead and post
another one right after being told not too, I would most likely not
post them.... Sorry if thats not the answer you were looking for, but
that honestly what I would do.
if KT1 said that posting things like my many funny posts was banned, I
would first ask why,and why now but I would not go right ahead and post
another one right after being told not too, I would most likely not
post them.... Sorry if thats not the answer you were looking for, but
that honestly what I would do.
Personally, I
would first of all ask what might qualify as a "funny" post (or not).
And the result of the discussion (so far) has been: whatever post KT1
thinks is funny would be grounds for banning the user, simply because
KT1 thought so.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but that is the way I see it (and I surmise a couple others see it that way, too -- even if they are intimidated, I have a hunch they do feel that way).
I
know some of you arrived late to this post and I see a lot of heat has
left the argument but that is due to the whole post becoming one sided.
There
has been many questions put forward but I still have no clarity, some
people pick up near instant bans (a few warnings does not compare to 4
or 5 complaints a week) while others seem untouchable.
I have not been banned, I have no idea what it would feel like.
I
have had one warning, this was born out of anothers inability to spot
sarcasam. I apologised anyway because it was easier than explaining.
While
there are people who come on here night after night and throw insults
about on a help site, it would seem irony is lost on the very same
people.
I am dissappointed help.com I really thought something would have come
out of this that may have helped improve the site and maybe cut out
some of the rot.
I see now you have decided to leave this post to talk itself out and let it dissapper into the abyss.
I
fear I may be right in the suspicions I put forward earlier on this
post and the site is slipping towards another chat room rather than
help site.
Colwyn Bay, 90, GB | 1 day, 14 hours ago (15 hours, 29 minutes after post)
Well
I am all talked out now lol, don't know what else to say. Don't be
sorry for being blunt, blunt is a good thing on occasions as what is
the point in padding out the same answer people will only get confused,
I'm not offended by anything you have said I know everyone has thier
own opinions and views.
Colwyn Bay, 90, GB | 1 day, 14 hours ago (15 hours, 34 minutes after post)
Oldfart,
I think I agree with you on that, I do see some people that don't ever
seem to get warned when they obviousley need a good talking too and
others who genuinley didn't know what they did was wrong get a warning
right off, and that I don't understand either, and there are one or two
people on this site that I have no idea how they have avoided being
banned 10 times over....
Maybe this site works on a "teachers pet" kind of scheme, you either
have the qualities they like or you don't and if you don't then your on
the hit list before you even put a foot wrong....
Who knows.... Kind of scarey though..... **peels eyes open**
If
you are controversial and that attracts attention than you may find you
have allies where you least expect (this post could be an example of
that, as its the top post today and comes from a previously banned
member and has been closed and re-opened).
This brings me full
circle to the sponsored links argument, however if you are being
negative in manner that hurts business then you may find yourself
banned quicker than you can get a reason for.
And Xbox maybe you should have finished with saying to KT1....."now go away or I'll taunt you a second time"
Brookfield, CT, US | 1 day, 11 hours ago (19 hours, 10 minutes after post)
Xbox,
you realize that the links you post are called "Parked Domain Names."
Parked domain names are used for advertising the sale of a web domain.
They're not a reference source. So not only are they not useful they're
advertising the sale of a product in a unrelated environment.
Therefore, I shall stand behind KT1, on her decision for she is right
in this case.
Now, I also do resent the fact that you believe
we ban people based upon the fact that we dislike them. That is not the
case and all bans are carried out following the Terms of Service you
agreed to when you registered for this site. The existence of your
account is proof of you agreeing to those terms. Therefore, we reserve
the right to ban any user who violates those terms.
Xbox, I
also do find your conduct towards KT very inappropriate. Not only do
you disregard what she says but you talk back to her. She has been
giving your straight answers throughout and you seem to want the
answers you're looking for.
I don't mean any disrespect
towards you Xbox but it seems like you are making personal attack on
KT. I will not allow that towards ANY member of this site. What you
were posting was NOT helpful and was just ads. That's it. Stop trying
to fight it. Please. You're digging your hole deeper with each attack
you take.
I ask that you drop the topic and I do welcome your insights for towards other users that you're giving so generously.
Montreal, QC, CA | 1 day, 7 hours ago (22 hours, 55 minutes after post)
xbox WAY TO GO !!! :)
it started with "Please stop spamming posts with URLs to fill in the contact form"
did anyone notice how many times the "URL" got mentioned in this post...
just how many people visited this "URL"... talk about creating traffic...
KT1, i don't understand it... u should have banned him the second he asked questions... i mean u did visit this "URL" !!! :(
you realize that the links you post are called "Parked Domain Names."
Parked domain names are used for advertising the sale of a web domain.
They're not a reference source. So not only are they not useful they're
advertising the sale of a product in a unrelated environment.
Therefore, I shall stand behind KT1, on her decision for she is right
in this case.
Now, I also do resent the fact that you believe
we ban people based upon the fact that we dislike them. That is not the
case and all bans are carried out following the Terms of Service you
agreed to when you registered for this site. The existence of your
account is proof of you agreeing to those terms. Therefore, we reserve
the right to ban any user who violates those terms.
Xbox, I
also do find your conduct towards KT very inappropriate. Not only do
you disregard what she says but you talk back to her. She has been
giving your straight answers throughout and you seem to want the
answers you're looking for.
I don't mean any disrespect
towards you Xbox but it seems like you are making personal attack on
KT. I will not allow that towards ANY member of this site. What you
were posting was NOT helpful and was just ads. That's it. Stop trying
to fight it. Please. You're digging your hole deeper with each attack
you take.
I ask that you drop the topic and I do welcome your insights for towards other users that you're giving so generously.
I
get angry when people think they understand something they obviously
know little or nothing about and then start pontificating or something
like that.
One of the leading providers of domain parking is Google. Since you are obviously unclear about how domain parking works (or doesn't work), I suggest you try to contact a Google representative and ask them to explain it to you.
It is not my job to explain technology that other people develop, especially when I think it doesn't really achieve very much.
k wrote: you disregard what she says but you talk back to her
Again: utter nonsense
--f I were to disregard KT1 then that would mean I do not pay
attention to what she say. On the contrary, I pay very close attention
to what she says. Indeed: that is why I started this thread -- to get help from people so that I might be better able to understand what she says.
k wrote: I don't mean any disrespect towards you Xbox but it seems like you are making personal attack on KT.
My previous replies to your other points are evidence of the fact that perhaps you do not see things clearly. Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself!
sherryn wrote: Do you feel happy now you've had a little bit of attention?
I
feel this question is off topic in the context of this thread (if you
wish to pursue it further, then please start a new thread on the new
topic you wish to raise -- perhaps adding a link to the new thread here
in this thread if you feel that it is relevant to the topic of this thread.
This
thread is about the censorshop of posts on help.com -- and perhaps also
about the clandestine manner in which they are carried out. It is also
about the active participation of the members of this site and about
something that is sometimes referred to as the "attention economy".
It is not about anything personal.
If,
however, you feel that I am wrong about this, then I guess you could
explain what you mean (as long as you are permitted to do so by the
site management ;).
BTW
(just in passing): Personally, I would not subscribe to your draconian
suggestions. I feel simply extinguishing protest by brute force is
neither good business ethics nor a sustainable business plan -- but of
course you are entitled to your own point of view (but I do not really
feel impelled to argue about it if I feel it is moot).
After
having "slept on it" and also after taking a walk outside (and getting
some "fresh air" to think about the issue), I have come to the
conclusion that this issue can be distilled down to the following
question:
Which measuring stick can / should be universally applied to resolving the whether a link is labeled an advertisement or not?
So far (AFAIK), we have come up with 2 answers to this question:
1. presence/absence of "sponsored links" on the page (though that can in some instances be hard to identify)
2. "amount" of non "sponsored links" content on a page
Let me use some site examples (these sites are not registered in my name (I have simply arbitrarily selected 2 top results for a Googe.COM search for "free"):
With example #1, I find it difficult to assess which of the content might pass as "sponsored", versus which portions are deemed to be "not sponsored".
With example #2, I find the amount of data on the page to be too much for me to digest (pages like this put my brain into meltdown mode).
With
both of these examples, I feel it becomes clear that the evaluation of
content is a distinctly subjective opinion --n other words: there is no way to make an "objectively valid/correct" assessment
-- and this is precisely what I mean when I say that it boils down to a
"value judgment" (it has also occurred to me that some people may have
perhaps interpreted my use of the term "value judgment" as if I had
meant a "value judgment of my character" -- however, I actually meant it to refer to a "value judgment of information" [i.e., information available on the internet]).
Now
if this were my personal website, and I don't like websites with "too
much information", then I could simply say that I wouldn't allow any
links to websites with "too much information". Likewise, if this were
KT1's website, then she could simply say that she wouldn't allow any
links to websites with "not enough information". In such cases, the
"result" would simply be either my opinion or KT1's opinion (that is what I meant when I said above that the result for this site would be more about the person/s who is/are "gardening" the website than about the community which is participating here).
If,
on the other hand, the focus is more on what is important to the
community of participants, then IMHO there needs to be less emphasis on
personal value judgments and more emphasis on methods of "gardening"
the website that involve more community participation.
And I also feel I need to reiterate how important I feel it is that such methods need to be transparent to the entire community's membership, and not hidden in some clandestine underground dungeon or "shouting chamber".
I
feel this has been my point of view all along -- and so far I have not
learned anything that would convince me that another approach would be
better.
x,
from what I can understand, people can post links to other sites that
are relevent to what the post is about, I clicked on a link of yours
and got allot of very strong pornographic images, don't know where that
was supposed to come into the post topic but hey, done now.
I think that the issue is that you were posting links that took you
nowhere other than a sponsor/advert that was of no help to others. So I
can see why it was/is stopped as if everyone started doing that then no
one would click on any links here as you would never know where you
would end up and what you would see. The admins are trying to keep this
place safe and they can't do that if they have to constantly check
outside links to see if they are safe.
from what I can understand, people can post links to other sites that
are relevent to what the post is about, I clicked on a link of yours
and got allot of very strong pornographic images, don't know where that
was supposed to come into the post topic but hey, done now.I think that
the issue is that you were posting links that took you nowhere other
than a sponsor/advert that was of no help to others. So I can see why
it was/is stopped as if everyone started doing that then no one would
click on any links here as you would never know where you would end up
and what you would see.
Yes, I am now beginning
to regret having asked for the community's advice on the experiment I
did with the sponsored links. But the thread did explain that
it was about evaluating the efficacy of such "sponsored links"
services. I don't know why I think they would be useful -- guess I was
just having a bad day or something like that. At any rate, I tried to
correct the mistake ASAP. Do think it is possible to forgive me for
that mistake? I am truly very sorry about it.
})i({ ~LazyDaze wrote: The
admins are trying to keep this place safe and they can't do that if
they have to constantly check outside links to see if they are safe.
So
does this mean that you would prefer a scenario in which the personal
judgment of the admins "trumps" a method by which the community could
be more actively (and transparently) involved in flagging inappropriate
content?
You
seem to forget when you say things like "personal judgment of the
admins trumps a mothod which the community could be more actively
involved" that half of this community are aged between 13 and 18, I
would not want a 13 year old to click on a link like you one for
example and then expect after that child has seen adult content to flag
it, and anyway when people see stuff like that they flag it, or should,
anyway so we are doing our bit.
Do you know, I have seen a day without admins and mods in here, and it was totaly scarey!!
I did not stay long at all, people were posting what the hell they
wanted, rude, agressive, and dirty things, some were posting hatefull
things about other members etc and in chat it was just a free for all
argument that seemed very violent so to speak.....
So I do see what the admins do, and I wish you had seen that day as maybe you would not be so quick to say the things you do.
Well I have to go and get a shower and start doing some stuff around the house.
X, I hope you get what you are looking for out of this but I really do
think that you are takeing this to far and seeing to much in this, you
said it is not a personal thing but to be honest I think you are
letting it become one.
This is after all only a help site, you really hate the way it is run so much then I am sorry to say, just leave.
I love this site, I Love the people and I agree with the admins, not on
everything but almost everything, I can see why they did what they did,
ok you are angry/annoyed but what is done is done and now you know so
be a better person and learn from this.
I don't want to loose you as a friend I have your e-mail if you ever
wishto talk but I can not see your way of thinking on this subject
anymore, you just seem to be seeing your view and nothing else, your
questions have been answered more than once yet you still state you
have had no answer.
I'm going now, I hope you don't attack what I have said to much although I wouldn't blame you.
Speak soon x
It seems you have come to a conclusion on this but for me it has exposed a side of this site that leaves a bitter after taste.
There
were points raised during this discussion that were swept under the
carpet and I do not think we will get answers for, I did state its not
our site and we have to abide by the rules even if it is only a select
few that have to follow them.
However for the rules to work
the people who apply them have to abide by them first or all you have
is anarchy.I have already mentioned some of inconsistances that go on
during this post but I have had none answered.
I have usually
came on here to help as best I could and reported what I deemed to be
inapproriate, however the more the site descends into just another chat
forum the more I see no reason to offer my help.
I seem to be coming on to report missuse and abuse rather than actually
helping anybody, no matter how much I adjust my tags I come on to over
a 100 posts and it has gotten so bad I just aknowledge all of them
without looking then do a search for the few that seem to be genuine.
Sorry help.com but things are going downhill fast.
})i({ ~LazyDaze wrote: Well I have to go and get a shower and start doing some stuff around the house.
X, I hope you get what you are looking for out of this but I really do
think that you are takeing this to far and seeing to much in this, you
said it is not a personal thing but to be honest I think you are
letting it become one.
This is after all only a help site, you really hate the way it is run so much then I am sorry to say, just leave.
I love this site, I Love the people and I agree with the admins, not on
everything but almost everything, I can see why they did what they did,
ok you are angry/annoyed but what is done is done and now you know so
be a better person and learn from this.
I don't want to loose you as a friend I have your e-mail if you ever
wishto talk but I can not see your way of thinking on this subject
anymore, you just seem to be seeing your view and nothing else, your
questions have been answered more than once yet you still state you
have had no answer.
I'm going now, I hope you don't attack what I have said to much although I wouldn't blame you.
Speak soon x
Emily
xxx
Emily,
you say: "I agree with the admins" -- someone else above said the much
the same thing, and I feel that my reply will fall much the same way:
is this a blanket statement that extends to everything any admin might
have said or will say in the future? You may not have intended it that
way, but now that "the ink has dried", that's the way it will stand
until time immemorial (or until some admin decides to wipe out this
thread -- just something to think about ;)
If you feel
that if/when an admin bans my account on this site, that it was my
decision to "leave"... -- then I feel (IMHO) that that is a little bit of
a "quirky" perspective. But I guess it's your right to think whatever you like -- after all: it's your head, right?
Colwyn Bay, 90, GB | 23 hours, 24 minutes ago (1 day, 6 hours after post)
x, I meant everything the admins do, almost everything, I agree with, meaning what I have seen or know of....
I can't agree with things I haven't seen the do same as I can't dissagree too.
You have a funny way of trying to make peoples replies sound completely different, maybe the way I type who knows :)
And no, I would not take you being banned as you leaveing, it would
take you saying "goodbye" for me to think you have left, if you get
banned again I would probably think "oops, thats not good but not a
supprise" and would most likely side your corner once again to the
admins and try and get you back even though you would have probably
brought in on yourself.
You
seem to be "argueing" with me on the fact that I actually like the
admins and appriciate what they do. Don't get me wrong though, if I
could see that you were completely innocent in this matter I would be
the first one on the band wagon fighting in your name... So I won't just
rll over and accept everything they say as right of justified, I am
just saying that a high percantage of what they do here has a good
reason and cause.
Brookfield, CT, US | 18 hours, 28 minutes ago (1 day, 11 hours after post)
Xbox,
I don't care who parks pages. The fact that you link to them is not
allowed. It doesn't matter who owns them or not. Also, Google DOESN'T
park domains. They simply provide the AdSense to those pages.
Therefore, your facts are wrong. Please do read http://www.google.com/domainpark/
for more information about this service. You're link ing to
advertisements and that's NOT allowed. The pages you linked to ARE
parked domains. They ARE not allowed here. I do NOT care who owns the
page. With that this post is closed. You're officially warned about
posting links to parked domains.
There is a great amount of community participation on the help.com website, but unfortunately the help.com site is run be people who seem to be quite intolerant and do not allow free speech.
The help.com website crashes quite often and the help.com site management seems to be understaffed.
All in all, the help.com site (and in particular the help.com website) would have enormous potential, if only the help.com site were run by more competent people.
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